Who would like to see street tires in stock?

[teamking]

I've been reading about people who believe that Stock classes should run street tires, i.e. tires with treadwear of at least 140.

At least in the S2000 world, there seems to be quite a bit of support. My personal reason reason is that I'm sick and tired of changing tires before and after each event. Adds 90 minutes to my already long days, since I often have a 2+ hour drive each way.

But perhaps a better reason for street tires is that I think that R-Compounds in stock are bad for recruiting new membership. The guy (or gal) that shows up for their first event would like to think they are a good driver. If they loose by 5 or 6 seconds, they wind up pretty dispirited, and may not return. Alternatively, if they only lose by 3 or 4 seconds because the class leader is not running R-Compounds, they might feel better about their performance and keep coming back.

Another reason: cost. For me to be able to run R-Comps cost $300 for another set of rims, $500 for a hitch, $500 for a trailer, and $800 for the tires. Now, I'll grant you that if I ran on my street tires, I'd wear through them faster, but that's not an up-front cost.

So, what can be done about it?

Some other regions have:

1. In Stock Classes, automatically use a PAX factor of .968 (2 seconds on a 60 second course) for cars running on tires with treadwear >= 140. This applies to all the raw calculations including class points and overall rank. The normal PAX calculation is subsequently applied for PAX comparisons.

2. Run another class called STS2K, which is open to any S2000 regardless of modifications, as long as the car as Street Tires. The thought is that the car, even with mods, will be traction limited.

Now, I'll grant you that I'm looking at this mostly from my own perspective. And it would hardly be fair for the whole region to change the rules based on one opinion. So I'd like to see if anyone else agrees or disagrees with any of what I'm saying.

I think we'd all agree that the ideal situation is that every car that shows up at one of our events winds up in a class that is competitive. The problem that I'm seeing is that too many times classes are being raced with one or two or three cars. If one of those is on R-Compounds, then things just aren't fair. If that car decides not to run R-Compounds, what happens if someone else shows up that morning from another region and IS running R-Compounds. And you can't do well on PAX without R-Compounds.

I appreciate any thoughts and comments you all have on this.

Thanks,
Will

[rschumin]

I can appreciate the sentiment behind what you are saying, but I don't think it will work. You will have the same situation as today at a higher treadwear rating.

1. People will do / spend what is necessary to win.
2. Lots of people running street tire classes who drive their cars to events are changing tires.
3. As long as light weight wheels are legal people will buy them.
4. The guy who shows up on 400 treadwear tires because that is what came on his car is going to be just as dispirited when you whip him on your 140's. In the autocross time scale there isn't much difference between 3 seconds and 6 seconds behind. You need carbon dating to determine either.
5. Take your proposal to the next logical step and suggest a set of rules to make it work. You will quickly find yourself in a regulatory quagmire.

Now, all that said many clubs run a paxed street tire class for stock class cars that are not on R-comps. That might be a better option regionally.

[drum3]

Triad does just that.WE have a TIR class that allows any car on 140+ tread wear to run.It is PAXed on the most recent index.

[iiibbb]

I used to run TIR class... It was always doable in Triad because the regular classes were well-populated. At BRR it seems that some stock classes would be completely depopulated.

The problem with requiring 140+ tires is that you'd essentially require me to spend a buttload of money to move up to an SP class if I want to drive my car.

Autocross is really hard on any tires. Within 3 or 4 autocrosses, anything I have on there woulnd't pass an inspection or would potentially have me getting a ticket for poor equipment. So you'd still have me relegated to changing my tires at autocrosses, or purchasing a new set of street tires every 12 months.

I think there are street tires now that are faster than 2 seconds behind 710s. So I don't think that .982 factor to adjust them is necessarily fair either.


I'm pretty sure if you're going to autocross regularly, you're going to wind up with a seperate set of wheels. Now it might be nice to be able to change your wheels in the comfort of your garage the night before. But I'd leave it the way it is.

[Chiketkd]

I'm kinda split on this issue...

I currently race on 140 treadwear tires, as I don't have the spare change for an extra set of rims and r-comps. However, next season I was looking forward to racing on r-comps to be more competitive.

I guess I'd like the rules to stay the way they are as stock classes get so few mods AND if more mods were given then the ST classes would serve less purpose.

[914geezer]

If only the stock classes were really "stock". As I understand it, the S(Street) classes that were started a few years ago were intended to bring in the folks on street tires with somewhat modified "RiceRockets", etc. that had some mods that did not fit the S (Stock) classes.

The idea was to bring new folks into autocrossing. This has worked to some extent re more entrants. However, it also seems to have had the side-effect of reducing stock classes. It also attracted some people from the stock classes for a variety of reasons.

Trying to class all cars, not to mention tires, fairly may be impossible? I recall an article in Grassroots Motorsports years ago, (possibly when it was still named AutoX) on how to modify your "stock" car for autocrossing and thinking that was an ultimate oxymoron.

PCA has a SS (showroom stock) class for 140 or higher tires and NO mods of any sort beyond delivery specs. Not sure how popular that would be in SCCA.

[glenthompson]

I have mixed feelings on this. I think keeping stock cars more stock like is a good philosophy. The problem is typical replacement parts like tires, brakes, and shocks. How much use of aftermarket parts is acceptable?

If I ran street tires on my Miata, I'd still run separate sets for AX and normal driving. It would allow me to drive on the AX tires to most events. That way I can change tires in the garages with better tools - floor jack and air wrench.

I don't like adding classes due to the dilution of current classes. Creating parallel street tire classes would be a problem. Using a PAXed class would be better but still causes problems. I think changing the stock rules is the only way to reasonably implement this.

Ray's suggestion of writing a set of rules is a good one. It gives us a starting point for discussion.

[mroberts]

I think it's a good idea - even if you do want to run two sets, having them both be street tyres means you can change them at home without issues.

You will always get people spending as much money as they can in any class, but I think requiring street tyres will cheapen things a lot.

[DSPDA3]

All the ST classes require street tires. You think those are 'cheap' classes? You have to spend alot of cash if you want to be competitive in ST, namely suspension setup, engine bolt-ons, etc.

That applies in any class really. As has been said earlier, if you want to be competitive in any class, Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared, etc. be prepared to spend the money.

[friendly jab]If it takes you 90 min. to change tires back and forth at an event, perhaps you should rethink changing tires. I can get tires changed in about 10-15min, or 30 min. total. [/friendly jab]

Changing tires doesn't bother me at all, however I'd rather not change them out in the pouring rain. Mick knows what I mean... I even swapped tires when I was running STS. Am I crazy? Probably, but I like to be semi-competitive, not tooling around on 400 treadwear Sears specials.

If someone shows up in DSP, not running on R-comps, I don't necessarily feel like it's unfair for them. If they choose to run DSP on street tires, then that's their choice. They should be aware that DSP allows R-comps and that they will be at a disadvantage. Alot of cars that run DSP on street tires, are legal for an ST* class, so they could run there instead.

Just my $.02...

[IamRascal]

I switch out tires and I run in STS. prefer to keep my autocross tires and street tires seperate. You'll burn up the street tires either way so the budget argument is dead.

We have the novice class for newcomers, so they won't be scared away.

I think the larger problem as was said here previously if we split the classes we'd have 1/2 full classes. If we had classes the size of DC regions I think it would be less of an issue.

In the end tho, speed costs money, and if you want to be competitive your going to have to spend a little.

Is there no ST class for S2000's? Maybe the bigger complaint is that theres no street tire class for the S2000 to play in. Miatas have been dealing with the no place to put tires for a while now.

Once you have the trailer you can use it with whatever car you want. It may be an upfront cost, but once its spent you never have to spend it again. I can fit 4 tires in the back of my sunfire, but if my apartment complex allowed me to keep a tire trailer, you can bet I'd be all over it in a heartbeat. The smell of tires can be noxious when its hot outside even with the windows open.

[teamking]

[friendly jab]If it takes you 90 min. to change tires back and forth at an event, perhaps you should rethink changing tires. I can get tires changed in about 10-15min, or 30 min. total. [/friendly jab]

I am slow, that's true. But that 90 minutes includes unloading/reloading the trailer, removing/installing the trailer hitch from/onto the car, and unhitching/rehitching the trailer. In my garage, I can change tires in about 20-25 minutes.

Ray's suggestion of writing a set of rules is a good one. It gives us a starting point for discussion.

OK, here's what I would propose:
1. Cars running in a stock class with tires >=140 treadwear have the option of placing an S on their car, in front of their class designation. In my case 804 AS becomes 804 SAS.
2. SxS cars have their scores multiplied by .968 (or some other reasonable coefficient). That score is used to rank them in their class, and relative to FTD (I think some may object to the FTD part, but I'll throw it out for now). That score is then multiplied by the pax coefficient to produce a pax score.

Who wins in this? Stock entrants who want to run on stock tires.

Who loses? Anyone else in PAX. Anyone else on FTD. Any stock entrants who don't want to run on street tires.

I think the PAX issue is fair. The idea of PAX is to factor out the car, and find out who's the best driver.

As for other stock entrants who are running on street tires, I think they would appreciate the increased competition.

As for FTD, I can clearly see that someone would complain if they ran a 54.000 but got second on FTD because someone else ran a 55.000 that got factored down to a 53.240. So I'll concede that maybe we wouldn't want to do that.

Thanks to everyone for responding. I just want to say that I've been having a lot of fun autocrossing, and it's because the BRR has such great people that do an outstanding job. Thanks!

[teamking]

Is there no ST class for S2000's? Maybe the bigger complaint is that theres no street tire class for the S2000 to play in. Miatas have been dealing with the no place to put tires for a while now.

Nope.

[iiibbb]

Like I had suggested earlier... I think it would be cool to treat certain categories as sidebar classes (e.g. Novice, Street Tire, Ladies, etc.) Specifically you would run both your class and the sidebar competition.

The concept had pretty good support in my "Thoughts on novice class" thread.

http://www.g1teg.org/brrscca/viewtopic. ... highlight=


That way you don't thin out the primary classes, but those on street tires... or novices... etc would still have something else to gun for.

[fullup1]

I remember suggesting this before for fun, and perhaps this is another time to mention it (just until Glen chimes in on the horrendous logistics of getting it done from a timing and scoring perspective), but doesn't this all boil down to some form of bracket racing?

It is impossible to correctly PAX all cars, and as Ray said, if there is a competitive edge to be had, people will spend the money and time to get that edge. I really am curious to know how many thousands of dollars some people have poured into their "stock" autocross cars for shock testing and revalving, front swaybar changes, alignment changes, tire and rim sets, etc.

In lieu of strict bracket racing, which I'm fairly certain the perennial FTD'ers would not like so much, what about this alternative (somebody who has raced with the Capital Driving Club told me about this setup).

From the Capital Driving Club website:

Index System


The indexed time is a measure of how well you did relative to the other drivers. The “Day’s Index” is calculated by taking the mean time of the day divided by your best time. This indexed is used for the next autocross to give you an indexed time (by multiplying your time by the index). The second time you autocross another “Day’s Index” will be calculated. Then your next index will be an average of the two indexes. The process repeats until your index is an average of 3 “Day’s Indexes.” After that, the indexes will consist of the last three “Day’s Indexes” with the older “Day’s Indexes” dropping out.

So, if your index is above 1, your times in the past 3 events are above the average. If your index is below 1, then your times in the past 3 events are below the average. In theory, if everybody drove at exactly the same level (or the same level of improvement), everybody should get the same indexed time. If you, however, improve more than the other drivers, your indexed time would be better.

Some drivers don’t really like the indexed time, because it favors new drivers. The new drivers, after all, tend to driver poorly the first event they drive and then improve drastically in subsequent events. They then get an outstanding indexed time.

A good example is Elizabeth Rimi, who first autocrossed on August 1, 2004. She drove extremely slowly and came in dead last. The resulting index was 0.765. In September 19th Elizabeth ran again for her second time. Because she improved so much, she beat everybody in the indexed time by over 3 seconds with a day’s index of 0.928. Elizabeth’s new index is 0.846 (an average of 0.765 and 0.928).

One of our intents is to get more people interested in autocrossing. By having the indexed in this manner, people like Elizabeth may feel more inclined to stick with autocrossing. The experience drivers can still do well with the indexed time if they improve either by driving ability or better equipment.

There is no perfect way to class everyone, from the new autocrosser to the national driver, but at least this method proposes a driver specific approach, so if people do well or not, they know that they were responsible for what happened.

[mrtwo]

I wouldn't mind seeing a paxed street tire time, as long as it is a "sidebar" class so it doesn't dilute the existing classes.

Without some previous run data I'm not sure what the pax multiplier should be for a street tire. Some of the 140 street tires are already pretty good. At the King Tire event I was 0.4 seconds faster on Kumho MX street tires than on some slightly worn Kumho Victoracers. The Kumho V710's are certainly faster, but I don't think many of the 140 series street tires are that far behind, especially if they are shaved to the 4/32 tread depth used on the V710's (but then would they still be "street" tires?)

For people running multiple auto-x's per year I don't think there's any practical way not to have a separate set of tires (whether they are R comps or street tires). Many stock class cars have very limited camber settings so one set of tires would really take a beating.

One reason I don't mind changing tires is it gives me a chance to make a final check on the wheels/brakes/shocks/suspension/wheel studs, etc. before and after each event. With the introduction of annual tech a couple years ago there is an even greater need for the driver to keep up with the vehicles condition. During tire changes I have found a broken strut mount bolt and a broken sway bar bolt on my old MR2 and a broken sway bar bolt on my present Miata. Time well spent, regardless if you're putting on a set of R comps or street tires.

Tim R